Particles vibrate, yes. I don’t know how you get from that to rocks vibrate, trees vibrate etc. Their particles vibrate, not they themselves.

Steve, I hope you are not insinuating that a rock and a tree are different matter? If you are, I am going to have to question your scientific knowledge.

On physical being the only reality, you said your belief is:

Pretty much yes, because there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

I can understand your belief. I was once there myself.

You stated:

There is no such thing as true for me. I can say that for me, the world is flat, that it is true for me. Doesn’t make it true. Something that is true is true for everyone. Or it’s not truth, it’s something else.

My friend much of our experience is subjective and non-quantifiable. If your statement were true, then you would know that pizza is the absolute best food in the universe and that chocolate chip cookies and milk is the ultimate desert. You would know that a snickers is the best candy bar and that all others need to be taken off the shelf.

However, a diabetic may have a totally different experience and opinion of my meal. For me it is the next thing to heaven. For a diabetic my favorite meal would be a decent into hell. The foods are “real” and can be experienced in objectivity. However the experiences are subjective and true for each individual. If everything in “reality” was objective we would all feel the same about all things.

Something based on individual personal impressions, feelings and opinions rather than external facts can hardly be called knowledge.

Wow! If you flunked a test in school, the teacher told you that you are a waste of human flesh and using up perfectly good oxygen for other more smarter and deserving human beings, would would accept that assessment? The test would be an external fact. But only a person that has internal knowledge and belief in themselves will push on. No matter the opinion of another.

For me, feelings, impressions and my opinion is the most valid assessment of my experience in the universe. Our acceptance of any knowledge comes from our internalized beliefs. If a person in poverty only accepts the “perceived” objective reality they will never be able to escape that poverty. Their individual personal impressions are the most relevant source of inspiration they can have. In order to change their reality, they have to imagine themselves in another reality and believe they can get there. Despite all objective circumstances. Without the faith that things can change before it does. It will not. That is real for them and it is subjective.

Your above statement invalidates the human experience. It is a contradiction of your involvement with me in this forum. You have beliefs that I do not share. from my perspective they are subjective based on the knowledge you have. For me it is neither good nor bad, it is how you believe. I don’t feel a need to convince you to change. You are a beautiful
human being in your form and worthy of existence. I would not discount your beliefs by saying to you they are invalid based on a limited set of rules and information.

If you truly believe your above statement, and I have no reason to think that you don’t, then your experience can only be validated by someone or something outside of you. That is no different than any dogmatic belief in a religion.

In reality, there is only one.

So you don’t have a source then. I could say all of natural science backs my position. Neither of us proves our point with that statement.

“ALL MATTER vibrates. Even at the theoretical temperature of absolute zero matter still vibrates.”

Particles vibrate, yes. I don’t know how you get from that to rocks vibrate, trees vibrate etc. Their particles vibrate, not they themselves.

“a human cell is matter. We are made up of trillions of cells. They all vibrate.”

There is no evidence of cells vibrating in any of the scientific lit I’ve read. The particles that cells are made of vibrate. Cells do not as a whole have a detectable vibration.

“at the most base level all matter is made of the same energy. This again is basic natural science.”

True.

“at the most base level humans, a planet and a star are made of the same thing. Energy. Due you dispute basic science?”

Nope.

“As I have stated before, I do love science. but it does not answer all questions. as far as experiments, I do much of mine the same as Einstien would. I think through them.”

Hmm. Thinking about an experiment is not the same as doing one. I would think that in less than five minutes I could find proof that Einstein did real experiments or had someone do them. The times he didn’t do an experiment were when he was working on theories for which the technology to prove them hadn’t been invented.

“Steve, you seem to come from the perspective that only the physical is real.”

Pretty much yes, because there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

“there is much about humans that natural science still has yet to quantify. We have memories, yet science has yet to find any place physically where a memory is stored.”

Clusters of neurons in our brain are where memories are generated from. They are not really stored anywhere. Chemical processes produce memories in response to certain stimuli. Lots of research has been done on memory.

“Our consciousness can not be quantified by natural science.”

That’s what I’ve been saying all long. We agree on that. But that is what you are doing isn’t it? Trying to use quantum science and sympathetic vibrations, both areas of natural science, to explain human behaviour or consciousness.

“Our imagination can not be quantified. A dream can not be quantified. Intuition can not be quantified yet it is something that many can attest to. All these things are “real” yet they can not be proven by natural science except to know that we as humans have these things in common.”

If we know we have them in common, then why even try to test? Tests are to try to understand what we don’t already know and serve to challenge common knowledge. Common knowledge in the past asserted that the sun moves around a stationary earth. It took one man with a very low quality telescope to disprove common knowledge.

Anyway, dream states have been quantified in terms of alpha waves and so on which are measurable. Lots of experiments on dreams have been done. I don’t know about intuition.

“Scientific method can not quantify any of these phenomenon. Yet they do exist. There is no experiment that has yet quantified these aspect of the human condition that is a part of us all. They must be acknowledged even if scientific method can not “prove” them.”

But science can prove them. Put 100 people in a room and ask them to intuit something and then look at the results. People’s brain waves have been observed while dreaming. These are quantifiable. Lots of scientific tests on dreaming. Claims of paranormal powers have been tested numerous times. The Amazing Randi has tested many claims of the paranormal and nobody has yet to be able to do what they say they can do under controlled conditions.

“Much of metaphysical knowledge is subjective. For me God is real. It can not be proved, only experienced.”

There is no such thing as true for me. I can say that for me, the world is flat, that it is true for me. Doesn’t make it true. Something that is true is true for everyone. Or it’s not truth, it’s something else.

” There is much scientific method will never be able to “prove” about human subjectivity.”

Subjectivity is “judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts” (Princeton). If someone wanted to experiment with subjectivity they could. There just doesn’t seem to much to be gained from it. Mostly, you would discover just how fallible and unreliable subjectivity is.

“Much of metaphysical knowledge is subjective.”

Something based on individual personal impressions, feelings and opinions rather than external facts can hardly be called knowledge.

“For me God is real. It can not be proved, only experienced.”

God can be disproved. Anything that is “real” presents itself in reality. There is no evidence for god except personal anecdotes which aren’t proof at all. Plus, you could take ideas from the Bible and test them. Science has tested prayer at least ten times for instance with quite surprising results. People who were prayed for after surgery got worse while people who had no prayer did better in recovery and had fewer complications (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html).